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| The Red Baron |
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| $1K Set Up |
He sent his motors to be done at 1977 Mopeds. They in turn sent the motors to Detroit Moped Works to build. He got the motors back and was excited to fire them up. This is when he hit a snag. He contacted me with this problem:
With the spark plug removed, I can crank the engine no problem with spark. But when I put the spark plug back in the head, it seems that i've got too much compression and the starter plate won't engage. Pedal start slips. Rolling start doesn't engage starter plate. I've got Amsoil 10w30 in there right now. Timing was at 3 but now at 2mm btdc..
He reached out to Detroit Moped Works for a diagnosis. But they told him they didn't have the time to test all the motors they build. For the amount of money he spent, I would think they would. Instead he gave me one of his ZA50s for diagnosis. I immediately suspected his problems had to be connected to 1977 Roller Bearing Crank that was installed. I researched this crank heavily when I was building my ZA50 Gila and Metra motors and decided against using it instead going with pressing the con rod out for a roller bearing replacement by Moped Crank Works. I decided against it due to the potential problems the off tolerance circlip location the 1977 crank has. Here is a excerpt of the many discussions about the crank on Moped Army:
T y l e r (concubidated) — Sep 09, 2013 05:12PM
The problem with rebuilding with a stock crank, is it will not always shim together correctly. As it has been popped apart and pressed back together. Always it seems like a few places can actually do it correctly. Puch did not make that crank to come apart, if you have ever pressed one apart is it terrifying, takes about 12k pounds.
THe 77 crank is pretty amazing. There are three problems though.
1. Crank is about 0.015in larger then the stock crank, which means sometimes to get it to shim right you need to run two gaskets (don't do that) or cut the crank down 0.007 on each side. (do this).
2. The circlip groove on the tranny is cur about 0.040in off, so there is a washer on top of the starter clutches that you can just remove to compensate for this. Chris Paz talks about it here.
3. The brash bushing will fall off if your clutch bell is not perfect. In the case that this does happen, we drill the clutch bell out and machine a new brash bushing on the end of the crank. Have never seen issues after doing this.
Chris Paz ( chrispaz) — Jan 28, 2013 09:21PM
Maitland I think all the skepticism stemmed from the fact that you called it a Rito crank.
When I first saw the thread my first thought was "wonder if he is talking about an e50 crank" then I saw who posted and realized that was not the case.
There is only one za50 aftermarket crank. 1977 Moped designed it (with my help) treats found where we ordered it from and ordered some for them selves. And the factory that made them did not correct all the changes I requested be made to the prototype crankshaft they originally sent.
The circlip grove that retains the starter clutch spring plate is cut .040" too far out. This causes binding of the starter assembly when you tighten the clutch nut down. You can correct 2 ways, there is a shim that sits on top of the circlip . if it is removed everything should bolt together perfectly. The correct way to fix the issue is machine the starter plate (one that also carries the 2nd speed clutch). Doing this allows you to run the stock shim and adjust for the space the circlip grove is cut wrong.
The cranks run the same L17 and E20 bearings and seals as the stock crank.
Also make sure the clutch bell fits as there are 2 sizes of clutch bells and the aftermarket cranks only work with the larger ones (probably not going to be a problem very few clutch bells are the smaller version).
I cracked opened the transmission to see what Detroit Moped Works did. They went with the removal of the shim that sits on top of the circlip. So I assumed the binding problem from the nut was solved. So I turned my attention to the starter plate friction plate. We changed it out to see what happens. All other tolerances "seemed" ok. I double check all the other components in the tranny like the clutch, etc. It seemed all good. He took the motor back but the same problem persisted.He torn the transmission down again and for the next two weeks we trail and error fixed over a bunch of text and emails (It's very difficult to diagnose a motor without the bike!!). After all the trials and tribulations he finally got it to work. It was the tolerance shimming on the clutch bell side before the tranny cover. It was too tight. The tranny cover was smashing the whole clutch system causing it to bind. We were too focused on the starter clutch side of the circlip because we thought the removal of the shim on the clutch side of the circlip solved any tranny cover binding issues. He replaced the shims with a thinner one.
and EUREKA!! IT WORKED!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!
Now the Red Baron is being fine tuned and is back on the streets. Another Puch rejoining the club!!
Stay tuned for more pics and vids of this bike!!
On a last note: Before you send your motors to the mainland to build, try reach out locally first. There are a lot of Puch knowledge already here on the Islands. We have some of the best Puch builders anywhere in the world!! Just hit me up and I can hook you up!!
Happy Tuning...
UPDATE
I received a retraction from the boys at Detroit Moped Works themselves. It's only fair to hear their side of the story:
Good Morning,
Thanks for getting Jeff's ZA50 (s?) finalized. I had not heard back from him since we sent the motors back. I had no idea there were any issues until coming across your blog today. He did not reach out to us after getting them back; although, honestly we couldn't have done anything about it being so far away. That's why we hate building motor that we can't test ourselves. Honestly, we would have just sent him to you to troubleshoot the issue with the motor on the bike, so I guess no big deal. But I just hate that he didn't reach out to us at all.
Were there issues with both motors that we built or just the one? We get the shimming right the first time probably 95% of the time, so I'd be surprised if they both had errors.
Regarding: "He reached out to Detroit Moped Works for a diagnosis. But they told him they didn't have the time to test all the motors they build. For the amount of money he spent, I would think they would. " There is some truth to that, but we charge $300 for the rebuild, minus $50 for bearings, seals, gaskets and $50 to ship back to Hawaii. So that comes out to $200 total. $100 for the shop and $100 for the mechanic; so it's not like we are making crazy money for this. On top of that, he split the two motors and gave us a jumbled bunch of parts for the two motors, some were broken from use and some were damaged from disassembly; so after giving him gears,and misc bits, we really did not make much of anything on it. Also, sorting through his parts took a bit of extra time.
Since there was very little room for profit, I told him that we would have to charge our standard $60 for us to install it on a bike, run it, and take it off - which seemed like a silly unnecessary expense as we get them right 95% of the time. (and usually the shimming error that we have is a shaky shift; we have never had one just not engage?) So to me the only reason to run it would be to actually get it on a bike and test for the quality of shift. Also, we don't run Gila'd bike here since we are more in the business of building commuters for non-moped people; so we don't even have a gila intake/ tm24 / large angle port pipe to run it with, so we would have to have bought them jsut to test his quality of shift. Also, if my memory serves, he did not give us an ignition (I think?).
Anyways, I'm not writing you to make excuses; but we try really hard to have really positive customer experiences and It's frustrating that this customer did not have one, and that he came to you with the issue rather than to us. I'm greatfull that you were able to get him sorted out and that he is able to enjoy the work that we did. Thanks!
| Kind Regards, Alex Samul Owner Detroit Moped Works 5407 Michigan Ave Detroit, MI 48210 Phone # (313) 502-8198 Cell # (734) 883-5081 E-mail: sales@ Website: detroitmopedworks.com |
Genius!
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